The Rational Basis® of Happiness Podcast

Michelle Winer Davis discusses the concept of a "sex starved marriage," where one spouse desires more physical intimacy while the other is uninterested. This disparity can lead to emotional disconnection and potentially infidelity or divorce. Davis emphasizes that low sexual desire in men is often overlooked and can stem from emotional issues rather than performance problems. She highlights the importance of communication and understanding in resolving these issues, noting that the person with lower desire often controls the sexual relationship, which can be unfair and unworkable. Davis advocates for addressing both emotional and physical needs to improve marital intimacy.

Action Items:

Download chapter one of "The Selfish Path to Romance" for free at Dr.Kenner.com and purchase the book on Amazon.com.
Discuss the insights from the interview with Michelle Weiner Davis and consider how they apply to one's own relationship.
Outline: Michelle Winer Davis on Sexual Desire Gaps in Marriage: Speaker 2 introduces Michelle Weiner Davis, author of "The Sex Starved Marriage," and praises her book for addressing common sexual problems in therapy. Speaker 3 (Michelle) explains that the most common sexual issue reported to sex therapists is a sexual desire gap, where one spouse longs for more touch and physical closeness while the other is uninterested. Michelle emphasizes that the lack of touch and physical closeness leads to a broader disconnect in the relationship, affecting intimacy and potentially leading to infidelity and divorce. Speaker 2 asks about situations where the woman feels she has had enough of sex and is no longer interested, to which Michelle responds that low sexual desire in men is also a significant issue, often overlooked.

Understanding Low Sexual Desire in Men: Michelle clarifies that low sexual desire in men is not always due to sexual performance issues but can be due to similar reasons as women, such as feeling criticized or unloved. She shares an example of a couple where the man's low desire was due to feeling hurt by his wife's demands, highlighting that men often don't talk about these issues, leading to isolation and misunderstanding. Michelle points out that the person with lower sexual desire usually controls the sexual relationship, often leading to infidelity due to unmet desires. She argues that the expectation of monogamy without fulfilling the other spouse's sexual needs is an unfair and unworkable arrangement.

Addressing Sexual Desire Issues in Marriage: Michelle discusses the importance of communication and understanding in addressing sexual desire issues, emphasizing that both partners need to talk about their feelings and needs. She mentions that men are often expected to be both strong providers and emotionally open, which can be challenging and lead to feelings of hurt and disconnection. Michelle notes that men's feelings about themselves and their relationships are closely tied to their interest in physical intimacy, similar to women. She highlights the misunderstanding that leads to sexual problems, where one partner expects the other to be sexually interested despite emotional distance, and the need for both emotional and physical closeness.

Conclusion and Resources: Speaker 2 thanks Michelle for joining the show and promoting her book, "The Sex Starved Marriage." Michelle mentions her website, divorcebusting.com, and other books she has written. Speaker 6 directs listeners to the Dr. Kenner podcast website for more content. Speaker 5 promotes the book "The Selfish Path to Romance" by Drs. Kenner and Locke, offering a free download of chapter one and a link to purchase the book on Amazon.

Keywords: sexual desire gap, sex starved marriage, intimacy issues, infidelity risk, low sexual desire, emotional connection, sensitivity training, assertiveness training, relationship dynamics, sexual problems, marital issues, physical closeness, emotional closeness, sexual fulfillment, relationship advice

Where do you live? I COVID with my mother. Well. Where does she live? 179th Street in the Bronx. All right, I'll take you to the subway. Why can you will? You'll buy me a cab. Why'd all you dames have to live in the Bronx? You mean you bring other girls up here, certainly not from a heavily married man. If you're having marital problems, many times sexual problems. With me today, I have Michelle Winer Davis, who's the author of the sex starved marriage, boosting your marriage libido, a couple's guide. And it is a fabulous book. Michelle, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, Michelle, I when I read your book, I just I was dumbfounded. I felt like you hit just about every problem that I've ever run across, this in terms of a sexual problem in therapy. And I want to ask, how many marriages, how many people go through marriages where the sexual life has basically died. You know, I don't know that. I can give you exact numbers. What I can tell you is that the number one problem that's reported, particularly to sex therapists, in regards to sexual issues that really creates havoc in a relationship, is about a sexual desire gap, and I really refer to it as the sex star of marriage, but let me define that for you, because unlike what maybe some of your folks might be thinking, it's not just a marriage where there is no sex. A sex star of marriage is a marriage where one spouse is desperately longing for more touch, more physical closeness, more sex, and the other spouse, for a variety of reasons, isn't interested and thinks, Okay, what's the big deal? It's just about sex, but to the spouse yearning for more touch, it's a huge deal, because it's about feeling wanted, it's about feeling loved, it's about feeling connected, it's about feeling close. And when this major disconnect or misunderstanding happens in marriage, what also tends to happen is that intimacy on all levels tends to drop out. They stop sitting next to each other on the couch. They stop laughing at each other's jokes. They stop doing things together. They stop being friends. And when that occurs, it often places the marriage at risk of infidelity and even divorce, and that's the reason I wanted to get the message out to people that you cannot afford to be complacent about a relationship or about a marriage where there isn't touch, even if it's not the first thing on your mind, you can't ignore that. There's a problem. So if the woman's saying, you know, I've had it, because typically, it's the woman, although you do make a point of saying that it's very difficult for men who have lower sexual desire. But if the woman is saying, I've had it all these years, I've just been pleasing you. I'm sick of sex. I could live my whole life without sex. Thank you. What's going on there? Where would you begin with a couple that's having that type of problem? Well, first, let me backtrack just a little bit. I think, as I wrote in this book, Ellen, that low sexual desire in men, though, while maybe less common than in women, but I still think it's America's best kept secret. There are millions and millions of men out there who aren't interested in sex. And when I say that, I know a lot of people think, well, that must be because they're having sexual performance problems. And sometimes that's true. But what I've learned in my work with couples is that oftentimes men have sexual machinery that works just fine. Thank you. But they're not interested in sex for many of the same reasons that women aren't interested in sex. As a matter of fact, just this morning, before you and I are talking here, I had a couple and that was precisely the case, and he felt that she was critical and she was demanding, and it hurt his feelings, and he just simply wasn't interested in touching her. And a lot of people would think that that's a role reversal. Well, it's a whole lot more common than people think. Guys just don't talk about it, and when they and don't talk about that, that means they're not getting help. It also means that the women with whom to whom they're married are very isolated, and they're thinking that there must be something wrong with them as women if their husbands aren't attracted to them, and I want to get the word out that again, this is much more commonplace than people think. But back to your original question about like, what do you do? You know, it's interesting, no one talks about this either. The fact that the person with low lower sexual with a smaller sexual appetite is almost always the one to control the sexual relationship. They're the person who has a headache or isn't interested in that, typically, is what plays itself out in the marriage. And we have an agreement in many, many marriages in our country, which goes something like this, I'm not interested in sex. So I know I'm not fulfilling your sexual needs, but I expect you to be monogamous, and I expect you not to complain about it, and I'm telling you that that is an unfair and unworkable arrangement, and I think it accounts for much of the infidelity that we see in our country. And so am I saying that people who have lower desire should just do whatever their more high desired spouse wants them to do. Well, the answer is, hey, I got to interrupt this, because we've got to pay some bills. 30 seconds, that's it. A very quick ad, and then Alan will be back. Romance. Oh, I wish guys knew more about what we want from a relationship. Boy, I wish I knew more about what I want. Where's that ad I saw here? It is the selfish path to romance, a serious romance guidebook. Download chapter one for free at selfish romance.com and buy it@amazon.com hmm, the selfish path to romance, that is interesting, and so am I saying that people who have lower desire should just do whatever their more high desire spouse wants them to do? Well, the answer is yes and no. Before I get into that, I'm wondering if I'm, you know, prompting a question, and you not allowing me to do all the talking here.

Oh, I love it. Okay, that was one of the quotes I had about I expect you to be monogamous, but don't expect me to fulfill your sexual desires Exactly. And in the fact that it happens both ways, you did mention that that there is that men suffer from some of the same problems. And I wondered if you could address some of those. Well, I can. I'll just give you an example. You know, back in, I think back in the 70s, we asked women to run off to assertiveness training groups so that they could get more in touch with their strength and their ability to make decision and ask for what they needed. Women did that. And I think women's roles have changed in terms of being better at, you know, asking for what they need. And at the same time, we asked men to run off to sensitivity training groups and get more in touch with their feminine side, their feelings, and really tap into who they are inside. Well, men did that, and now we not only are hoping, but we expect men to be strong and go out in the world and earn an income, but we also expect them to talk to us about what's really going on with them, and to be more in touch with that. Well, I'm see it in my office all the time. Men whose feelings get hurt, men who feel downtrodden or depressed, or they don't like their bodies, or they feel like again, like this man this morning that his wife is too demanding. I see I've had a rash of men in my practice who have been laid off of work, and the toll that that takes on who they think they are in the world and in relationship to themselves and their wives. So how a man feels inside has a great deal to do with his interest in being physically intimate in the same way that it does for women. I think that the real misunderstanding because so often what we hear about are guys being the ones chasing their wives around the house with a permanent direction, and women who are saying, You know what, in order for me to be physical with you, I first want to feel emotionally close to you. I need you to talk to me. I need you to spend time with me, I can't fathom why you'd be interested in having sex when this is in place and when women try to explain to themselves why in the world their husbands might be interested in being sexual if they're not feeling particularly emotionally close, what they tell themselves is that for men, sex must be a Biological urge. It's like scratching an itch. And I can tell you that, while that may be true, sometimes the men in my practice have told me, you know, hands down, that it really is much, much more than that for them, that it is about, as I said before, feeling wanted and feeling masculine and feeling whole, feeling connected and this misunderstanding in marriage, more than anything else, I think, is what leads to the kinds of problems you and I as therapists see in our offices and day by day. Well, I want to thank you so much for joining us. This is Michelle Weiner Davis. She's the author of the sex starved marriage, boosting your marriage libido, a couple's guide. And you can also go to your website, which is divorcebusting.com Okay? And you've written several other books too. Thank you, correct. Thank you so much for joining us today. For more Dr Kenner podcast, go to Dr kenner.com and please listen to this. NAD Here's an excerpt from the selfish path to romance by doctors Kenner and Locke, personality clashes that are bothersome during the dating process, when both parties are allegedly on their best behavior, often worsened with time. Though personalities are relatively stable, they are changeable, but change requires considerable conscious work time. Time and sometimes even professional help. For example, Rudy was an intense person. He would become very tense when he and Cheryl got ready to travel, especially when deciding when to leave for the airport. He wanted to leave very early and drive fast, just in case of bad traffic. Cheryl, in contrast, was more relaxed, though still conscientious to relieve travel stress, they agreed to let Cheryl decide what time to leave at the airport and also do the driving. As a result, they were both more relaxed. You can download chapter one for free at Dr kenner.com, and you can buy the book@amazon.com