The Rational Basis® of Happiness Podcast

The Selfish Path to Romance.

Download chapter one for free at DrKenner.com and @Amazon.com.

I can't believe you're getting upset over nothing.

I don't consider it nothing. I think we should talk about it.

I don't want to talk about it.

To not talk about it is just plain stupid. And couples can argue—that's from Frasier. And think about your own relationship. Do you argue silently, you know, cross your arms, roll your eyes and move away from each other, or do you argue with the loud, "I can't believe you're doing this, you idiot. You're stupid, you're a jerk"? With me to discuss the importance of communication in relationships is Dr. Tiffany Kistler. She's an assistant professor of couple and family therapy at the University of Rhode Island. Dr. Kistler teaches courses in couple and family relationships and in sexuality and sex therapy. She is the co-founder and clinical director of the Center for Sexual Health in Providence, Rhode Island. Welcome, Dr. Kistler.

Thank you for having me.

You're very welcome. Couples often avoid talking about the most important issues. I mean, they can talk about grandma, they can talk about the kids, but they are afraid to talk about the most important issues between them, including sex. Why is it that sex is so difficult to bring up?

Yeah, usually couples really don't have a clue about how to begin talking about sex, and part of that is we're really socialized, many of us, from a very young age that this is something that's secret and something you don't talk about. Then we get into a relationship, and we know that a key ingredient for sexual satisfaction, sexual pleasure, and quality is sexual communication, but we have no framework for knowing how to begin to have those conversations.

Right? So, they don't have a clue how to address it. They may think it's just too big to address. I mean, I can remember times early in my relationship when I thought, "Oh my god, can I bring this up or not? I'm embarrassed, I feel ashamed, and what if he leaves me if I bring it up?" You know, thoughts like that.

Yeah, couples really can be filled with a lot of worries around those types of issues. Another thing that can happen is in the sexual relationship, maybe there's something that they don't like or they're not enjoying, but they've carried it on without saying anything for so long that they're then afraid about the damage that they think they might do if they bring it up. "Now I've never told her" or "never told him," or "What if they think I'm weird or strange because I like this and not this?" So it just carries a lot of worry along with it, right?

And sometimes they hide sexual histories, like, "I'm so embarrassed that this happened in my past," you know, maybe I was abused, or maybe I had a same-sex experience or something, and they're very embarrassed about bringing that up. Would you encourage people to bring that up? Or how would they bring that up? What do you think?

Yeah, I encourage people to be aware for themselves of what factors might be contributing or be a barrier to that intimate connection with their significant other. If it's a safe relationship, and it's something that's a barrier at this point in time, I think it's important to find a safe way to begin to discuss this with the partner. Some things from our history, though, don't need to necessarily be shared, and some it might not be an appropriate relationship to share this particular piece of information.

Especially if the relationship is shaky, and you've shared your most vulnerable piece of information from your childhood, and your partner gets angry with you and, in court, brings it up, yeah, when you're divorcing. So it's not that you need to be guarded; it's that you need to build a really close bond and only share information to the extent that you feel comfortable with your partner. But you still need to, as you're talking about, figure out how to talk about issues. Now, what triggers arguments over intimacy, and what would be some solutions?

Hey, I gotta interrupt this because we've got to pay some bills. 30 seconds, that's it. A very quick ad, and then Alan will be back.

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What triggers arguments over intimacy, and what would be some solutions? One of the biggest ones that we see is what's called the desire discrepancy. So there's usually always a higher and a lower desire partner, and you can even switch much over time in who is the high desire partner at this stage and who is the lower desire. So a lot of people are having these arguments about how often and/or what type of sex to have, which can cause a lot of problems.

And so it's the frequency. What is the meaning that you might give to the fact that, you know, we haven't had sex in a while? What's going on? Is there someone else in your life? And, of course, someone else in your life could also be a source of arguments, and it is, yeah.

You know, with the low desire partner, we see that they sometimes feel resentment that they have to basically wake up a sleeping body. That it takes a lot of effort for them, and they don't think their partner recognizes what it takes to get in the mood. The high desire partner thinks, "I already desire you. What's wrong that you don't desire me? What's wrong with our relationship?" So it causes a lot of hurt feelings, right?

So that phrase is a good phrase to keep in mind: if you are the lower desire partner, just be aware that it's just like waking up in the morning. You need to wake up your body sensually. And what does that for you? Is it music, or what are some other things that can help a person wake up their body if they're the lower desire partner?

Yeah, I really like to talk to people about how to invite desire in. There are a lot of ways to do that, and that's also recognizing, you know, have you had adequate sleep? Are you creating an atmosphere in your home and in your relationship to invite desire in?

So if it's a warm climate in your home when you come home after a day of work, or if it's a warm climate, that's wonderful. If it's a hostile climate—bad weather, stormy weather—then if that's the nature of your relationship, then you definitely need to go back to the drawing board with one another and figure out what's at the core of those difficulties. What's another problem that would trigger an argument over sex?

Sometimes we see some gender differences in here. We see that women might report that they want to feel emotional intimacy, and that will then interest them in having a sexual experience or encounter with their partner. On the opposite side, we'll see that men feel having sex makes them feel closer and more intimate. So it happens in a reverse pattern for each partner, which sometimes gets them stuck in a stalemate. "I want this in order to have this," and "you want this in order to have that," right?

So if we have sex, I feel so close to you, honey. And the woman saying, "I want to feel close to you before we have sex. Can you do the dishes for me? Can you help around the house a little bit?" That will help me get in the mood for sex.

Yeah. And I think another issue is what's considered foreplay. It's really important to talk about foreplay with couples because they're having these arguments over intimacy and desire. For women, sometimes foreplay is what you just mentioned—helping out around the house, getting the dishes done. It can look very different for men sometimes than women, and you know, vice versa. So what is this, and how do we keep it in our relationship? And it can start first thing in the morning. It's not the 20 minutes leading up to a sexual encounter, per se.

Right? So it's the overall feel of the relationship too. I know I walked downstairs yesterday, and I saw that my husband had made the bed, and it was so cool. I mean, I felt closer to him. I said, "How nice." So just small, little things go a long, long way. And there are other things that couples argue over. What would be one more thing that you would like to focus on?

I think clashing of core values and expectations can be very difficult, and that can be where we live and how we live, or how we discipline our children, which can put sometimes people in a gridlock state. When that conflict is not resolved, it makes it very difficult to invite somebody into your body or that intimate connection.

And if you find yourself in gridlock, would you recommend therapy? And that's just what you do. This is Dr. Tiffany Kistler, and thank you for being with us today.

For more Dr. Kenner podcasts, go to DrKenner.com and please listen to this ad. Here's an excerpt from The Selfish Path to Romance, the serious romance guidebook by clinical psychologist Dr. Ellen Kenner. When partners disagree on important things, it makes romance harder. But what about small, optional things? Let's say your partner was brought up in a poor home and hates to see the water running in the shower for more than five minutes, or you like the bed made every day, and your partner thinks it's not a big deal. These are examples of differences that all couples encounter. It's rational to make a compromise on such things without either partner being a martyr. For example, your partner might grasp that you are now financially better off and that it's okay to take a longer shower. Your partner may choose to make the bed, or you may agree to make the bed together, or you can decide that it's not a big deal whether it's made at all.

You can download chapter one for free by going to DrKenner.com, and you can buy The Selfish Path to Romance at Amazon.com.