The Rational Basis® of Happiness Podcast

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How do you say no to a kid? And should you even say no to your kid? We're talking about discipline here. No, you can't hit your sister. No, you can't tell me you hate me. No, you can't bite. There's a general trend now where people say you can't say no to kids. With me to talk about this today is Charlotte Cushman, who has written this marvelous book, Effective Discipline: The Montessori Way. And Charlotte, you've had a lot of experience because you've been a Montessori teacher for more than 40 years, and so you've been surrounded by two-and-a-half-year-olds to six-year-olds, plus you've raised your own family. So I would love to talk about, should you say no to a kid, and how do you say it?

Well, yes, you definitely should say no to a child. I just can't believe this trend of not saying no. How are they going to learn self-control if they don't understand that word?

Because they need to learn how to say it to themselves. Like let's get an example going here. So Mary's five years old, and you tell her she can't ride her bike in the street. It's dangerous. You've already gone through the whole thing about safety, and you look out your kitchen window and she is doing just that. So what do you say to her? I mean, you can say to her...

I'd be running right out the door. Yeah, because I'd be afraid if a car was coming. I mean, in a situation where it's dangerous, you absolutely have to get out there right away and stop them if you want them to remain safe. And I would go out into the street and say, "You may not ride your bike in the street. I already told you."

"But Mommy, there are no cars coming. And Joey does it. Joey does it all the time. His mother's nice."

"Well, I don't agree. It's dangerous for you to be in the street. If a car comes by, you could get hit." And of course, when you say this to a little kid, they're not going to understand everything that you're saying because they don't even understand the concept of death yet. So there are very good reasons why they keep doing stuff like that, because they don't really totally understand, right? But you still give them the reasons. You know, you could get hurt, you might end up in the hospital, and you have to get out of the street. So in a situation like that, I would be very direct.

Right. The point that we made earlier is that you absolutely want that child to get to the street when she's riding her bike or he's riding his bike, and be able to say to themselves, "No, I need to stay on the sidewalk." I mean, you could phrase it positively, like "I need to stay on the sidewalk," but no, they need to be able to see the street and have an automatic "No," and then the goal is accomplished, right?

Yes, and that's a very good point. You can say to them, "I want you to ride your bike over here instead, or here is a safe place to ride your bike." Right? So that's a very good way of putting it to them. Yeah, you can't do this, but you can do this.

Right, right, so they know the positive. And I can remember my two kids, who now have their own kids, but they would put their bikes right behind the car, and the bikes were little trikes, so you couldn't see them. And if I backed up, what's going to happen? They're going to get hurt. I'm going to be upset. So I remember with my son...

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So I remember with my son, sitting him in my lap when his bike was behind the car. He didn’t want to move the bike. And I said, "Look in my rearview mirror here." He was sitting in the car with me, and I said, "Look at my side view mirror. Do you see any bike there?" And he said, "No." I said, "Oh, I guess I can back up now."

"No, Mommy, you can't. My bike's there!" And it was this wonderful moment of him realizing why the "no" was there, and that was your point—that kids have to realize that "no" is functional. It's not just a parent randomly saying "no."

Right, right. So let me turn to a different topic. Kids have toys, and it's so common for parents to say, "You have to share your Legos with your brother. You have to share your trucks with your sister," and that forced sharing. Can we spend a moment on that? Tell me what your thoughts are on that.

You mean the issue of forcing sharing.

No, I mean parents telling their kids that they need to share their toys.

Well, I don’t agree with that, because the typical view is that children should share their toys, and then when one child goes to another child and grabs their toy away, the child who had the toy doesn’t like it and resists. And what does the adult do? The adult says, "Now, Johnny, you should share your toy." What that says to the child who's grabbing the toy away is, "It's okay for you to be a bully. You can just go up to anybody you want and grab whatever you want." And what it says to Johnny is, "Your needs, your wants, your rights, your property can be violated."

It would be like me coming over to your house just as a friendly visit, and I decide to go into your closet and share your dresses. And I just pull out your favorite one and say, "I'm going to wear this today, Charlotte." What does that do to our relationship?

Exactly. You're going to say, "No, Ellen," right?

And that’s what happens. That's why a lot of times kids fight. And I used to tell parents at conferences, if you want your children to fight, force them to share. In Montessori, we do not force the children to share. If they take out a material, it’s theirs until they put it away. Other children can come and watch, but they don’t touch, they don’t interfere unless they’re invited. If they are invited, then that's fine, and it works out so well. The children really learn to respect each other. If you don’t respect somebody's property, you don't respect them.

Very good point.

And that's one reason why Montessori children get along so well together—they respect each other, and they know that respect will be given to them in return.

You know, I was once at Burger King with my two kids, and they have a playground in the back. We used to call it "Barrel Burger King" because they had a big barrel you could roll into. A father brought in his young kids, and my two kids were playing with them beautifully. The father said to me, "So, what's your secret? Your kids share the swings so well, they share the slides so well. What's your secret? They're just such nice kids." And I said, "I taught them they never needed to share." And he looked at me kind of taken aback. I said, "Yeah, when you force the sharing, they don't have that benevolence, they don't have that kindness, that wanting to reach out and share with one another." So I'm on the same page with you. I don't like forced sharing. I like to see kids either hold on to their things if they're in the middle of building a puzzle and want to do it themselves, just like I wouldn't take your puzzle, Char.

Well, you know, we view our friends and loved ones as values, yeah. And when you view them as values, then you share with them. It's a natural thing to do when you care about somebody. You have to let children reach that same point—that same emotional state where they have friends and want them to come over, to come up to their bedroom, to share their toys. But it has to be a natural thing; it cannot be forced.

Right. And with our kids, and I'm sure you've done this, you have share toys. When kids come over, you put favorite toys hidden in their room, lock the door, and then you have toys that your child has already decided are share toys. They're toys they're willing to share with company. And when I was bringing my kids over to someone else's home, I would bring some of my kids' share toys with me in a big satchel, and the other kids loved them, and they were much more benevolent toward my kids in terms of sharing toys. That works. Well, listen, I want to thank you so much. I'm speaking with Charlotte Cushman, and you have written this amazing book, Effective Discipline: The Montessori Way. How can people get a hold of that book?

You can find it on Amazon.

Thank you so much, Char. This was interesting. And to be continued.

Thanks for having me.

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