The Rational Basis® of Happiness Podcast

Transcript

The Selfish Path to Romance. Download chapter one for free at Dr Kenner.com and @amazon.com.

The Lord didn?t make the sun until the fourth day.
That is correct, that first day. Well, what do you think, it was 24 hours long? Bible says it was a day. Well, there was no sun. How do you know how long it was? The Bible says it was a day. What was it? A normal day, a literal day, a 24-hour day. I don?t know. What do you think?

I do not think about things I do not think about.

And that?s from Inherit the Wind. And you know, when you?re talking with somebody and they should be setting goals and thinking clearly, maybe it?s a parent who is not parenting well, and they just think to themselves, ?Well, I don?t know how to do it. This is just the way I do it, and that?s it.? It?s like they?re saying, ?I do not think about what I do not want to think about.? And that?s the exact policy that you do not want in your life. You want to be able to set wonderful thinking goals. And with me today is an expert in thinking. It?s Jean Marrone, and she has corporate clients BB&T, Microsoft and Amazon.com. She?s got three degrees, two master?s degrees, one in Electrical Engineering from MIT and one in Psychology from Carnegie Mellon. And she also has specialized training in a rational philosophy, objectivism?and that?s Ayn Rand?s philosophy. And you put that all together with Jean?s passion for thinking, and that?s exactly the topic we?re going to talk about now. Welcome to the show, Jean.

Thanks for having me, Ellen.

Jean, you talk about setting thinking goals, that that?s important to do. People sometimes go by that, many?very often?go by the seat of their pants, and they don?t know to set a thinking goal, whether it?s in a career or whether it?s the parenting example of, ?I don?t know how to parent, but you know, I?ll just go by the seat of my pants. I don?t do this because my mom used to do it and I didn?t like it, and I pick and choose here and there, but I really don?t have any thinking goal.? What would you recommend?

Well, I think in some of these cases that you?ve been discussing, I think maybe even just having regular goals would be helpful. So in parenting, if you don?t have the goal of being a, you know, respectful parent or, you know, nurturing the development of the kid or the child, nothing else falls from that. But if you do have some of these goals, thinking is your means of figuring out what to do. And thinking goals come up because there are specific questions that you need to answer to be able to get your goal.

Okay, so when you say?when I think of parenting, I think I?ll play the?I'll do a role play with you. Of course, I want to be a good mother. Of course, I?m motivated. I want to be a nurturing mother. But, you know, he?s always underfoot. He must have ADHD. My son just drives me buggy. And you know, I do what I can. So occasionally I yell at him, occasionally I just take off for a while and need to get my space, and I don?t know?how would I apply a thinking goal to that?

Well, let me actually suggest a slightly different thinking aspect applied to that, which is monitoring. I think that if you have a goal, one of the most important things you need to do is to monitor your progress toward the goal. And that is something that does not happen automatically. So that quote you had from Inherit the Wind, right? ?I do not think about what I do not think about,? is really true in this respect. It takes a deliberate choice to stop and say, ?Well, how am I doing? How am I doing on the parenting? What is going well and what is not going well?? Those questions do not ask themselves. And so I think the first thing?that first kind of thinking skill?that people need in these regards is the realization that they need to consciously stop, choose, reflect on how things are going. And that actually gives you an opportunity to figure out what it is you need to think about here.

So with parenting, if I sat down, I would say I don?t know how to discipline, or I don?t know how to listen to my child. I get?I tune out. He tells me all of these things he?s thinking and doing, and it goes on and on and on and on and it?s too long. So maybe I need to figure out how. I need to learn some listening skills with kids, and I need to learn how to delimit it. You know, I might need some skills to be able to say, well, I know the skills because that?s what I do, but you know, to be able to say something on the order of,

Hey, I gotta interrupt this, because we?ve got to pay some bills. 30 seconds, that?s it. A very quick Ave, and then Ellen will be back. Romance.

Oh, I wish guys knew more about what we want from a relationship. Boy, I wish I knew more about what I want. What? Where?s that ad I saw? Ah, here it is The Selfish Path to Romance, a serious romance guidebook. Download chapter one for free at selfishromance.com and buy it at Amazon.com. Hmm, The Selfish Path to Romance, that is interesting.

You know, I might need some skills to be able to say, well, I know the skills, because that?s what I do, but you know, to be able to say something on the order of, ?Honey, let?s spend the next 15 minutes together, because I can handle 15 minutes, but I can?t handle a half hour. And then after that I?m going to be working on a project over here, but let?s spend 15 minutes together and tell me about your day.?

Now that?s very interesting, Ellen, because you have, in fact, applied a thinking technique in your solution to that problem. So let?s just draw that out here. The whole problem of discipline and dealing with children is very, very complex. It?s not the kind of thing that has a simple, clear-cut answer. It?s not like you can go to a one-hour parenting workshop or even an all-day parenting workshop and come out of that and have suddenly all the skills you need to be able to maintain discipline with kids. I assume you?d agree with that.

Oh yes, absolutely. It?s like me trying to learn dance in one lesson. You know, teach me a rumba in one lesson. You can?t do it. But parenting is a lot more complex than that.

Right? There are so many interrelated parts. And part of this problem, part of the thinking problem involved here, is that you need to be able to think about all those parts at once. But when you first start learning, you can?t do it. It?s just too much. It?s completely overloading. And so one thing that you need to do in these situations is find a way to scale down the goal. So if you had the goal of having a perfectly behaved child and a perfectly warm relationship at all times with your child, to do that in one step is probably too hard. But maybe you can find some way to scale down. And what you were suggesting were a couple of small, easy things that could be added into the parenting routine, and that would make a difference.

Okay, so what I did was I said, I have?what is?what Ellen?name one of the problems you?re having with your son. Obviously that?s not a personal example?or Susie, name some of the problems you?re having with your son. And it?s that he talks and talks and talks and talks and talks, and he drives me crazy and I can?t listen. And finally I say he can tell I?m not listening, so he keeps trying to pressure me more to listen to him. So if I just said, what skill could I use there? If I made it clear-cut, and I know you?ve emphasized this, it?s got to be a doable skill, and it?s on something important to me?my relationship with my son. If I say, if I put aside 15 minutes right when he comes home from school, then he may be more willing. He?ll have my full attention for the 15 minutes, and he may be more willing to go play with friends or play with his Legos or do something else.

Right? And so what you did there is this may not be a full solution to the problem, but it is a small, doable, clear-cut first step you can have that you?re pretty sure is going to contribute to the solution to the problem.

And it?s simple too, it?s something?

?something that you can implement, and yet will have something you can build on later, right?

And it gives me confidence. Oh my gosh, if I have the 15-minute solution with my son?or in some cases it may be a husband or a wife, another?you have to listen to for 15?not they talk and talk and talk, and you just listen, and then you go do whatever other tasks or interests you have. So listen. I want to thank you so much for joining us today. With me today has been Jean Marrone. She?s an expert on thinking skills, and her website is Jean?you can give your website.

Sure, it?s thinkingdirections.com. That?s the word ?thinking? plus the word ?directions? all run together.

And you offer what?

Well, I offer courses on thinking tactics, where, for example, I talk about how do you take a real complex problem and then break it down into a series of passes, where you can rough it in and get more details and other skills. And I have a free email newsletter, which you can subscribe to on the website and preview classes and articles and book recommendations up there?and tips. Thinking tips. There?s a wealth of information on your website, thinkingdirections.com. That?s all one word thinkingdirections.com. And I look forward to talking with you again sometime.

Jean.

For more Dr Kenner podcasts, go to DrKenner.com and please listen to this ad.

Here?s an excerpt from The Selfish Path to Romance, the serious romance guidebook by clinical psychologists Dr Kenner and Locke.

Sally left Wayne a curt Dear John note. Wayne was crushed. He had idolized her. As he thought about it more, however, he realized that he had never felt at home with her or loved by her. Behind Sally?s good looks, there was no real self. She was a narcissist who used Wayne to get money and attention, but she never showed a personal interest in him. Clearly, he should have gotten to know her as a real individual. Intoxicated by her beauty, he gave her an unlimited benefit of the doubt about everything else. Even when we keenly observe and accurately evaluate a potential partner?s behavior, a person may be adept at temporarily camouflaging bad character traits.

You can download chapter one for free by going to DrKenner.com and you can buy the book at Amazon.com.