The Rational Basis® of Happiness Podcast

(this is raw unedited text transcribed directly from the audio)

Dr. Kenner: Angela, you have a partner, a spouse, who has been giving you some problems?

Angela: Yes, big problems.

Dr. Kenner: You mentioned anti-social behavior? 

Angela: He was diagnosed with anti-social behavior disorder. That’s what me and our family is trying to deal with. He is seeing a psychologist but the behavior has progressed and gotten elevated. I’ve been trying to contact the psychologist, not to find out about what the two of them are dealing with, but just to express some concerns with what’s going on, on a daily basis. We have two young children and I have not been able to get any response from him, other than him actually reading and printing an email that I sent to the psychologist to my husband, more or else, like I did it behind his back and saying that if I continue to contact him, he will no longer see my husband.

Dr. Kenner: Okay, so this might be all the privacy regulations, or it might be this particular individual, because many times, if you’re dealing with – oh, man. Let me just pause for a minute. There are different types of therapy and some therapists just have a very unique relationship with the individual and they don’t integrate other aspects of the picture, other pieces of the puzzle. I know I was trained in individual therapy, I was trained in couples therapy, marital therapy, and I was trained in family therapy. If you notice that a husband is having problems and you know he has two young kids – how old are your kids?

Angela: 8 and 5.

Dr. Kenner: And you want a fuller picture and especially if the person has anti-social behavior disorder, you may have a couple’s session, just to get a different perspective. It doesn’t mean you’d have a million couples' sessions, but it’s just to give information. In fact, when I’ve had couples come in and the husband is in therapy with someone else – I’m just paralleling your situation – I recommend that the wife go in at least for one or two visits. Call the psychologist, so the psychologist can get a broader picture. Especially an anti-social person! Let’s talk about that.

Angela: I have actually been invited to come into a couple’s session and have spoken to him, but being that the behaviors that he’s experiencing now don’t seem to fall under the lines of the anti-social disorder. It began as more, so when I contacted him to ask him, these symptoms have been progressing, is this part of the treatment or is this new behaviors and how do I support him and our family support him in the responses that he has and help him on the path to recovery? And have gotten nowhere.

Dr. Kenner: I can hear a difference in a philosophical foundation here. Meaning if you think it’s a disorder, a disease, then you’re going to have one perspective on it. You’re going to treat it like diabetes. He couldn’t help himself. Poor guy. And the family has to kind of cater to him and work with him and take his hand. If he’s been lying, cheating, being aggressive, assaulting, being reckless with your things or other people’s things –

Angela: Which he has.

Dr. Kenner: If he’s not consistently working, if he doesn’t show any remorse, if he’s indifferent to you, I mean, these are some of the characteristics of anti-social. I don’t know if he has the personality disorder?

Angela: That is exactly it. 

Dr. Kenner: If that’s the case, you could use some supportive therapy for yourself. I don’t know if you have gone to a therapist?

Angela: I have not, but I’ve been talking about going.

Dr. Kenner: Because what is the difference between an anti-social person and a criminal? Or a liar? Or a cheat? Or a deceitful person? To lie, you have to consciously know the truth and decide not to go in that direction. That’s what I’m saying, there’s a moral difference between, you put people in jail when they lie, cheat, steal, they become physically aggressive, they refuse to honor financial obligations, they’re contemptuous, they’re con artists. But in psychology, we label them as anti-social personality disorder and treat them as if it’s a disease! So you have a very private decision to make for yourself. Is he a good lifetime partner? Is he a good role model for your children?

Angela: No he’s not.

Dr. Kenner: That came very quickly. Have you ever considered leaving him?

Angela: I have. Actually, I have legally separated from him. I have not divorced him, only to keep him on my medical insurance so that he can seek professional help for this. He has moved away. He lives with his mother and father who now have become the target of his aggression.

Dr. Kenner: But you and the kids are not, is he getting, are the kids safe around him?

Angela: The kids do get supervised visits.

Dr. Kenner: I’m very glad it’s supervised. The right person can enhance your life tremendously and make your life wonderful. You can’t wait to come home to your best friend and hug and tell stories of your day and share kids together. And the wrong person can harm you, can undermine your life, can make each day a living hell or worse. They can become assaultive, they can ruin your finances, they can ruin kids. So you need to make a decision where on the continuum he is, and I think that is the most personal question for you. Not so much how can we be supportive of him –

Angela: But what is the confidentiality between him and his therapist when the behaviors are becoming so – 

Dr. Kenner: It’s unique to the therapist. You can find a different therapist. You can talk, I don’t know what recourse you have if the therapist is holding you at arm’s length, whether you need legal recourse. If he’s not doing you any harm, if you are separated, then you definitely want to – we’re at the end of time here and I wish we had more time. Would you hang on and I’ll touch base with you right after the break.